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Choosing a gravel bike vs. a hardtail 29er MTB

By Bruce Lin

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Do you need a gravel bike to ride gravel roads? Of course not. One of the most appealing things about gravel riding is the lack of hard-and-fast rules. Your endurance road bike or cyclocross bike can easily be transformed into a gravel-capable machine with nothing more than good tires and a sense of adventure.

Gravel bikes have become popular because, compared to road bikes and cyclocross bikes, gravel bikes offer better comfort and stability. They have more relaxed geometry and much more tire clearance. These features enhance the experience of riding dirt, trails, gravel, logging roads, and everything in between.

Gravel bike vs mtbBut what about the original off-road machine? Long before the gravel trend, people were already riding mountain bikes on dirt and gravel roads. And though gravel bikes look a lot like road bikes, most of the technology — such as tubeless tires, disc brakes, and clutch derailleurs — was adapted from mountain bikes.

When looking for a new bike, some riders may find themselves torn between choosing a gravel bike and a fast XC mountain bike like a 29er hardtail. Both are good options for exploring mixed terrain from gravel roads to light singletrack trails. But what are the advantages and disadvantages of each. Which is better for you?

Contents:

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Gravel vs. MTB: What's the difference?

Drop vs. flat handlebars

If you needed to pick one physical trait to separate gravel bikes from mountain bikes, the handlebars are most obvious. Gravel bikes use drop handlebars while mountain bikes use flat handlebars.

Though it is possible to quibble with this distinction — flat bar gravel bikes and drop-bar mountain bikes are rare but they do exist — it serves as a very reliable indicator of a bike’s intentions.

Gravel Drop barsGravel bikes use drop handlebars because they are normally ridden at higher speeds on smoother roads and over longer distances. Drop handlebars are standard equipment on road and cyclocross bikes because they provide more hand positions. The ability to adjust your hands improves comfort and reduces fatigue on long days in the saddle. The drops also provide a lower, more aerodynamic position and leverage for sprinting. Drop bars give gravel bikes versatility for riding at high speeds, as they are meant to transition easily between paved and gravel roads. These bars are also usually narrower, making them better for riding shoulder-to-shoulder with other riders during group rides and races.

MTB Flat barsMountain bikes use flat handlebars because they provide more control in off-road terrain. Flat bars are wider than drop bars and provide stability and leverage. On rough and technical singletrack trails, they make it easier for riders to maneuver and hang on to their bikes. Flat handlebars often position the rider more upright with their hands further apart. This can be more comfortable, but it makes you less aerodynamic when riding at higher speeds on smooth, open roads. Flat bars are best for the slower speeds encountered on singletrack trails.

Tire clearance

Gravel bikes can fit wider tires than road and cyclocross bikes, generally in the 38-45mm range. A few models are now capable of fitting up to 50mm tires. Wide tires are good for gravel riding because the increased tire volume improves comfort and traction.

The largest gravel tires are still narrower than most mountain bike tires. The majority of XC mountain bikes are designed to fit tires in the range of 2.1-2.4” wide (50mm gravel tires measure about 1.97”). Mountain bike tires will have more weight and rolling resistance but offer the most comfort and traction

Like the handlebar comparison, gravel bike tires have an advantage on faster, smoother terrain, while mountain bike tires can handle rougher roads and trails.

Suspension

Suspension takes the edge off of the bumps and increases comfort and control. Most mountain bikes have at least a suspension fork, but the majority of gravel bikes are "rigid" to save weight and maximize pedaling efficiency. 

MTB Suspension forkThere are a few gravel bike models that utilize suspension, but they are rare. Many riders who desire suspension for their gravel bike will need to purchase aftermarket suspension forks.

Notable examples of gravel-specific suspension forks are the Lauf Grit fork, RockShox Rudy, FOX AX fork, and MRP Baxter fork. These forks provide significantly less travel than mountain bike forks — 30-40mm.

Lauf grit sl gravel suspension fork 30mm travelThe Lauf Grit SL gravel suspension fork.

This small amount of travel can smooth out bumps and chatter on rough gravel roads while remaining efficient enough for smooth gravel and paved roads. But if you're used to the plush comfort of a mountain bike fork, you will find them to be pretty firm. 

Read more: Do gravel bikes need suspension forks?

Gearing

As a broad generalization, gravel bikes will have “harder” gearing which will allow riders to continue pedaling when riding at higher speeds. Mountain bikes will have relatively “easier” gearing that suits steep and technical off-road climbs. Both gravel and mountain bikes have limitations when it comes to gearing.

Take, for example, a gravel bike and a mountain bike each equipped with the latest SRAM 1x drivetrain. Gravel bikes with a XPLR eTap AXS gravel drivetrain might use a 42t chainring and a 10-44t cassette. Mountain bikes with an Eagle drivetrain might use a 32t chainring and a 10-50t cassette.

SRAM X01 eagle mtb drivetrainBoth have pretty wide gear ranges. However, the hardest gear combinations provided by the drivetrains are very different: 42t-10t and 32t-10t, respectively. Because the gravel bike is able to fit a much larger (42t) chainring, you are less likely to “spin out” or run out of gears when pedaling at high speeds (above 20-30mph).

The easiest gear combinations are 42t-44t and 32t-50t. Because the mountain bike provides a substantially lower gear, it will be much easier to pedal up difficult climbs.

Of course you can customize your drivetrain to suit your needs, but most stock gravel bikes come geared for faster riding. They will generally have a larger 1x chainring or a 2x set-up. 

Read more: 1x vs. 2x gravel drivetrains

Mountain bike gearing might be more desirable for gravel riders who need an easier gear for hard climbing, riding while loaded with heavy bike-packing gear, or riders riding slow, technical gravel and singletrack trails.

Gravel bikes can be converted to use a mountain bike drivetrain (e.g., SRAM AXS allows for a “mullet” set-up using the 10-50t mountain cassette). But most mountain bikes don’t have enough clearance to fit the larger chainrings of gravel bike drivetrains and top-end speed will always be limited compared to gravel bikes.

Read More: Do you need an electronic shifting?

Geometry

Compared to road or cyclocross bikes, gravel bikes place riders in a more upright, endurance-oriented position for stability, control, and comfort when riding off-road. Gravel bikes can be considered a middle ground between road bikes and mountain bikes. Mountain bike geometry is even more upright and won’t feel as quick-handling on pavement or smooth gravel, but it feel more stable and confidence-inspiring on extremely rough gravel and singletrack trails.

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Ride characteristics

Comfort and fit

On gravel, the majority of riding comfort will come from the tires. Larger tires have more air volume, and can be run at lower pressure to absorb bumps and vibrations. Gravel tires in the 38-45mm range will be fine for typical gravel roads. If you’re riding a lot of extremely rough terrain (e.g., gravel with loose-golf-ball- to baseball-sized stones, deep ruts, roots, and large embedded rocks) or trails, you may benefit from the larger tires and additional suspension offered by mountain bikes.

Most gravel bikes are already designed to provide a fairly comfortable riding position, but if you have severe flexibility limitations or other comfort issues that a gravel bike can’t accommodate, a mountain bike that provides a more upright position is a good option.

Confidence and capability

Gravel Bikes on Singletrack MTB TrailIf you’re not comfortable riding on dirt and gravel or you're regularly riding singletrack trails, mountain bikes are the better option. The combination of flat handlebars, suspension, wider tires, and mountain bike geometry gives riders maximum stability, traction, and control. That's great for pushing the limit or getting comfortable venturing away from the pavement.

But unless you start venturing into tougher mountain bike trails, you might begin to desire more speed and efficiency. Plus, riding gravel bikes on singletrack can still be extremely fun and rewarding. You may be surprised by how much rough and technical terrain you can successfully ride. 

Even if you aren’t riding difficult terrain, a mountain bike could help you ride faster if you struggle with confidence when cornering, braking, or descending on gravel roads. (If you’d like tips specifically about how to corner, brake, and descend on gravel, read our Guide to Riding Gravel.)

Speed and efficiency

On smoother surfaces, whether paved or gravel, a gravel bike will be much faster and more efficient (it'll require less energy to pedal) than a mountain bike. Drop bars offer a more aerodynamic profile. Narrower tires have less rolling resistance. And the harder gearing is better for high speeds.

Fitness is a big factor, but it will always be much easier to keep up with a fast gravel group ride while on a gravel bike. If the terrain is smoother and flat, rolling, or downhill, a gravel bike will get up to speed and maintain speed more easily.

Mountain bikes will, of course, be faster than gravel bikes on true mountain bike terrain like technical singletrack trails.

Weight is also a consideration. Gravel bikes often weigh less than comparable mountain bikes.

Gravel vs. MTB: How to choose 

What is your local terrain like? What type of roads or trails do you ride regularly? Let’s say you mostly ride from your house to explore dirt and gravel roads. You might have to ride several miles of paved roads through town before you get out to the good stuff. In this case, a gravel bike that balances efficiency on the pavement with fun on the gravel would be ideal.

If you dream about wandering onto poorly maintained Jeep roads or rocky and rooty singletrack, then a cross-country mountain bike might be better. It will allow you to explore the worst terrain you will encounter.

Beyond your terrain, goals might influence your decision. Is your dream to finish the Unbound 200 gravel race or something similar? If you want to ride hard in a group of riders, race competitively, or just go fast and set new personal bests, then a more efficient race-focused gravel bike will be more desirable. On the other hand, if your friends might talk you into off-road races like the Epic Rides series or Leadville Trail 100, a mountain bike is the more versatile setup.

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My experience

Gravel bike vs mtbWho has the better bike in this situation?

Choosing the right bike can be agonizing. I’ve made those tough decisions over the past few years. I’ve been on plenty of rides where both gravel bikes and mountain bikes were present, and I've experimented with different gravel bikes and even a hardtail 29er mountain bike.

I successfully race a gravel bike for several years, then in late 2018, I began fantasizing about doing rides that would explore more rugged trails and have one bike that could do everything. I switched to a hardtail 29er with a rigid carbon fork. The fork reduced weight and improved pedaling efficiency. The flat bars and large 2.35” tires made it confidence-inspiring on singletrack trails.

29er hardtail rigid mountain bike gravel bike lynskey titaniumThis bike allowed me to continue participating in gravel group rides. Whenever we dropped into a section of singletrack or encountered sand or snow, I would leave most gravel bikes behind. This bike was fun, capable, and versatile. 

Over time, my goals shifted toward competition, and the 29er hardtail simply couldn’t keep up. Top speed was limited by aerodynamics and gearing. I found myself regularly spun out and getting dropped when speeds started entering the mid-20s. 

I've returned to a faster and more efficient gravel bike because I want every advantage possible. Gravel riding is still evolving. And I'm always evolving as a rider. Whatever bike you're on, the most important thing is that it can put a smile on your face. The only gravel "rule" you should worry about is having fun.

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Have you used a mountain bike for gravel riding or a gravel bike on mountain bike trails? What bike do you choose and why? Let us know in the comments!

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19 comments


  • My hard tail is a lot more versatile and a lot more fun than gravel bikes I’ve ridden. I can sacrifice a little less speed. I will always go with a hard tail.

    Kit on

  • Hey MNT to Gravel Temp, great question.

    The setup you’re describing sounds great. A rigid fork will definitely optimize things for speed and efficiency. That being said, my 29er had a 34 Step-cast originally, and looking back I probably would have just stuck with it and saved the money since I ended up swapping it back to mtb mode anyway and it’s stayed like that since. 

    I’d definitely get the lightest, fastest tires you can stomach on that bike. Those will make the biggest difference. I used a 38t on my old setup and that worked great for big climbs and fast descents in Colorado, but check clearance on your bike. Mine was super close. I spun out occasionally on group rides with the 36t but most of the time it was fine. YMMV depending on your fitness. 

    Hope that helps!

    Bruce Lin on

  • I’ve got a great lightweight capable 29er XC/trail mnt bike that I plan on riding a 5-day 350-mile gravel grinder since my cross bike raddles my fillings out and is not very comfy. I’m questioning swapping out the Fox Factory Float 34 Step-Cast 29, 120mm for a rigid fork, adding some bar ends, and going with some faster 2.0ish tires. I think going with a drop bar setup would be too much work and expense to swap out the flat bar brake and gear levers, etc… The gearing is 32t x 10-50t so I might get a larger 36T or 38T chainring upfront. Having never done a ride like this I have no idea what I’m getting myself into…

    Any thought on the bike set up and/or quality, comfy, and affordable front fork to swap out… if even needed?

    MNT to Gravel Temp on

  • I put a flat bar on my Surly Midnight Special gravel bike and am really enjoying it. So much more control in the gravel and still fast on the road.

    Larry Richelli on

  • Great Article!
    I too go back and forth on which bike is right for the job.
    I live and ride in Marin county, CA mostly with occasional trips to Tahoe and Mendocino (NorCal) so as you might expect, hills are inevitable. If I manage to avg. less than 1k ft elev. for every 10 mi then I consider that a “flat” ride. That’s why I’ve setup my gravel bike with 34×11-48 for a nice granny gear which is especially handy for those longer 60mile+ rides when spinning is winning.
    I’ve done plenty of rides and races with groups of mixed hardtail/ gravel bikes and my experience is a ride that’s 50/50 dirt/road or more road heavy, the gravel bikes usually win. Anything that’s 80/20 dirt/road or more dirt heavy, the XC hardtails usually win. Anywhere in between is a toss-up and that’s where it get’s fun. Obviously all dirt isn’t created equal, if I know it’s going to be a 70/30 dirt/road ride with chunky and rutted dirt roads and/or single track, I’m grabbing a XC hardtail.
    Tires are really something that can bridge the gap between the two bikes. A gravel bike with big knobby tires (if you can fit them – or use 650s) will perform more like a XC hardtail, likewise a XC hardtail with smoother tires (think WTB venture 50s) might be able to keep up on road sections, especially if they are good at drafting.
    If you’re serious about racing, (like trying to win) you’ll want both a gravel and hardtail, each with two wheelsets of varying width and tire treads in my opinion.
    If you’re trying to have fun on the weekends, either bike is going to make that happen.
    One thing that I think is extremely important in mentioning, and the reason why I find myself riding my gravel bike more often than anything else is what I call the GRAVEL GRIN. That’s the grin you get when you pass roadies uphill on your muddy knobby-tired gravel rig, it’s the grin you get bombing fire roads tucked way back behind your drop bars, the grin you get when you “survive” those single tracks, thinking “Hehe, I’m not supposed to be doing that on a bike like this!”
    -Cheers and rubber side down!

    Lucas Salem on

  • Great article! Really informative and just what I needed to know.

    I’ve ridden bikes all my life – both mountain bikes and road bikes – but have neglected biking over the last few years in favour of rock climbing. The UK lockdowns caused by the pandemic dragged me into getting the old hardtail out and I’m increasingly enjoying being back on two wheels. It’s a rebuild from about twenty years ago on an unknown frame bought at the Outdoors Show.

    But getting back into biking had made me question whether my old bike was good enough. I never really enjoyed riding technical single track, but always felt pressure to get on them, despite enjoying the fire roads more. So the recent development of gravel riding really caught my eye. It’s certainly given me plenty to read up on!

    What’s really interesting is that my twenty year old hardtail actually conforms to many of the new gravel bike traits purely by virtue of being really old. It is a hardtail but has short handle bars (popular back then) with bar ends (possible never fashionable but popular when I was riding a lot as a teenager) which actually gives the same diversity of position that drop bars give; albeit without the aerodynamic advantages. That said, being a much older frame, the geometry seems to sit me much higher than modern mountain bikes and more akin to a gravel bike. The gearing is also quite high (don’t know the figures but I was still putting pressure on the pedals down the local mountain pass yesterday at nearly 30mph) and goes low enough that I can tow the kids in the trailer up the steepest hills. And while it does have suspension forks, they do have a lockout and adjustment on the travel and recoil so are easy to stiffen up. Finally I’m currently running on a narrow gravel bike tyre which I’m looking to change at some point.

    From reading this piece, it seems there’s not actually that much difference in these two types of bike and it was great to read the section at the end about how much you loved your hardtail. I’m sticking with my old faithful – adding some colourful components to give her a new lease of life – mainly for sentimental reasons. But a huge thank you for confirming that there is little reason to change if I’m happy with the bike I’m on.

    Pete Edwards on

  • i’ve been riding road and mountain bikes on and off for three decades. Unless one is into speed, group rides( which get competitive) and serious gravel events, having a mtn bike( I’m riding a 27.5 3" 1X hard tail) and a roadie( cannondale CAAD 10) serves my purposes. I’m sure there are locations with ample fire roads and crushed stone but, not in my current locale. I’ve ridden the mtn bike with groups on pavement as well. It’s a monster workout. My days fighting to place in an event have gone by. Just ride and keep it simple.

    jim becker on

  • Great article, well written, covers lots of important considerations.

    I’m middle aged recently getting into biking. As a kid a couple different types of bikes, from single speed banana seat ape hanger bars to 10-speed drop bars with suicide brake levers. Then since then as an adult a 25 year period with a hybrid, and not riding much at all. Got old and fat, but recently lost weight, and the question was where and far and what kind of bike?

    Live in hilly area, so can’t even ride my 25 yr old hybrid, Specialized Hardrock, 3 ring, 6 cog, around the block. Lowest gear ratio is 1. But then tried my son’s mountain bike style hybrid, Jamis DXT Sport, 3 ring, 8 cog, lowest gear ratio is .88. With his bike I can do the hills. His bike also has a shock fork and wider tires, 42mm vs my 35mm. On trails and over roots, and on gravel roads, his bike rides a lot nicer than mine.

    So I also started riding with my wife, who has been running marathons, then did a triathalon, then got more interested in bike riding from that. Besides being more fit than me, she’s on a road bike with drop bars, 28mm tires, 50/34 rings, and 11-32 cogs. It is a Jamus Ventura Femme. While her lowest gear ratio is 1.06, she goes up all but the steepest hills. On my son’s bike with the .88, I can go up steeper hills. I ride to top, while she makes it halfway then walks. However on medium hills, she goes up faster than me. And on 10 to 20 mile rides, she crushes me. Not by using a faster top speed, but by her ability to keep her speed up much better than me on the many mild up hill parts of any typical route. This is true whether I use my bike or my son’s bike (and usually I’d ride my son’s bike so I could do the steeper hills).

    What led me to considering a gravel bike was the interest in finding a drop bar road bike with lower gearing for hills (but still fast enough). For a while I resisted the idea of drop bars, because they don’t come with suicide brakes (the dual levers on the tops) anymore. But in trying to keep up with my wife, on the hybrid/mountain style flatbar bikes, I’d move my hands off the grips and next to the stem. No brake levers there! Did that to get more areodynamic and lean forward. And to change hand positions for comfort over the longer rides. Ultimately became clear to me that the bike I was going to want needed to have dropbars. Along with lower gears. That is a gravel bike.

    Why not a skinny tire low weight road bike? They don’t come with a gear ratio that goes .88 or lower. After liking how my son’s bike goes up hills, I was not going to spend hundreds or thousands on a bike that wasn’t at least achieving a .88 low gear ratio. And to keep up with my wife, it also needed at least a 4.0 high gear ratio. Do skinny tire drop bar lightweight road bikes come in this range? I didn’t see them. I did, however, see there are touring/adventure road bikes with this gear range. They tend to be heavy, and often expensive. But what is the difference between them and a gravel bike? Both have wider tires, which seems a good idea for the occassional gravel or dirt road. Around 35mm seemed a good tire width for my purposes.

    Gravel bike seemed to win out over the touring/adventure bike in my mind because of the weight difference and because of hydraulic disc breaks. My son’s bike has them, and I liked them. Touring/adventure bikes don’t tend to have them. But gravel bikes do.

    For me, all signs pointed to a gravel bike. So I found and purchased a Jamis Renegade S3. 46/30 rings, and 11-36 cogs. Low gear ratio of .83, and high gear ratio of 4.18. Has 700cx36mm tires, hydraulic disc brakes, and drop bars. Also happens to be a steel frame with carbon fork. I didn’t have much opinion on that, but the overall weight is about 25 pounds, which seems light enough for my purposes.

    The difference in riding from a hybrid or a hybrid/mountain bike, to this gravel bike is like night and day. To be honest, it takes a lot to get used to. But it all comes back to me, from when I had a 10 speed as a kid. On the road, where most of my riding is, the hybrid/mountain bike is straight and steady, but the gravel bike is zippy. Completely different feel. There is a learning curve. But now I’m also comfortable with my gravel bike on the trail!

    Jeff on

  • One quick comment. Which bike would be safer for an older rider on regular roads. ?

    Rosa on

  • Out of interest, why not change the gearing on the hardtail? You could even (sit down people, this might cause a shock)…run a 2x setup?

    offwego on

  • I enjoyed this article a lot. I currently have a Salsa Sora 700 which I absolutely love. It is my first gravel bike which I bought just over a year ago. It’s a smooth transition from pavement to gravel.
    The bike came stock with 38mm studded tires but I decided to go aftermarket with the Maxxis Re-fuse 700 – 32c tubeless tires. I run them at a max psi of 75 since I live in the city, but when ran at a lower psi the tires are quite comfortable on bumpy terrain.
    I am relatively new to the cycling lifestyle, this article was a great explanation to what I’m current obsessing with.

    Jake MIller on

  • Curtis,

    The G-ones are fast and roll a lot better than knobby mtb tires. They’re significantly lighter than other 2.35 tires too. The one thing I noticed with pavement riding is that they’re very sensitive to tire pressure. When I went too low I’d experience some annoying self-steer when cornering. (It’s not noticeable on gravel.) If you’re doing a lot of pavement I’d suggest running pressures in the high-20s to 30psi.

    Bruce Lin on

  • Hey there! Question : The linsky with the 2.35 Schwalbes G-ones above — How did this perform on road (pavement) compared to a normal MTB tire?

    Thinking about doing the same set up for my commuter which consists of mainly paved trails into some dirt trails as well.

    Thanks!

    Curtis Hofmann on

  • I ride mostly on a road with rough surfaces and cracks. Love the look of a pinarello but they all have drop down racing bars. What’s good bike for me with flat bars, maybe larger tires that has speed and comfortable that has that sleek sexy look?

    BIlly on

  • This is a really great article. I think about this issue all the time. I’m primarily an XC MTB racer, but I’ve done a handful of gravel races on a singlespeed hardtail. I’m about to upgrade my trail bike to lightweight Canyon Lux, and I think it is steep and efficient enough with the lockout to be a great gravel bike. I’d love to hear from anyone who owns one about your experiences with the Lux outside of the XC course.

    Jeff Coyle on

  • Hey David,
    Thanks for the question!
    Since the CR1 is a road bike, if you plan to do some light gravel, building it to be as comfortable as possible is all you can really do. Not sure what year your bike is, but the main thing is just to fit the largest tire the frame can clear. My guess is it will likely only fit tires in the 25mm width range. In most cases, clearance is going to come down to the chainstays, fork arch, and brake calipers (if it’s rim brake and not disc). Unfortunately, this may require some experimentation with specific wheels and tire combos. I’d buy 25mm tires and start there. I don’t know if the CR1 can fit 28mm tires, but if it can, do it. Do some research on what size tires other riders have fit in your frame before. A lot of riders report their findings on forums. 
    Road tubeless isn’t required, but it will be your friend riding off-road. Since you’re building up from a frame, I suggest just starting with a solid tubeless-ready wheelset, and then using wide tubeless-ready tires. Some of my favorites for this sort of application are the Hutchinson Sector and Panaracer Gravelking (slick). If it doesn’t work to your liking you can easily go back to tubes on the same wheels. 
    Otherwise, a comfy saddle and thicker bar tape are all you can really do. There are seatposts and other cockpit components designed to absorb vibration if you’re interested, but wider tires running lower pressures is really going to make the biggest difference. 
    Before gravel was a thing, I rode a road bike with 25mm tires on all my local dirt and gravel roads, survived it all, and had lots of fun. Good luck!   

    Bruce Lin on

  • I just acquired a sweet carbon fiber fram, Scott C1R from a friend and thinking of building a gravel bike with this, any advice on where to get started? I want to do this on the cheap but with quality components. Let me know what you think.

    David Deane on

  • If your goal is to have diverse rides even on the same trails and make it feel different, Get a 29er and also a gravel bike that can take 650 wheels and tires. Then you have a road bike with 700 tires, a 29er mountain bike, and a gravel bike that accommodates 650 b wheels and tires to change up the ride depending on what and where and what you feel kike doing that day.

    Mike Geffen on

  • Great article! As I’m looking to get back into riding after being away from it for a few decades, this helped answer a lot of questions for me. As my background comes from the earliest BMX days, translating that into current day tech and definitions is not as intuitive as one might think.
    I want to ride again and experience all the fun and enjoyment I used to. However, the BMX I used to do is neither the current off the shelf road nor mountain bike. Yet those seem to be the only options for the adult size I now am.
    From your article, I think your solution of hard forks on a 29" hard-tail mountain bike is exactly what I’m going to do.
    Thank you for putting all of that together. It made the difference for me!

    David George on


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